Transcript

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Hello and welcome to the Chosen Few. The one and only place for you. My name is Isabelle Santin. And my younger brother is, for all intents and purposes, blind in both eyes. He was born with congenital glaucoma, which is a potentially degenerative eye condition. In his case, he's been blind in one eye since birth and more recently has lost almost all of his vision and his only seeing eye being left only with light perception.

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Meanwhile, I kind of have a software obsession and due to my brother's eye condition, he and I tend to think a lot about how most popular software packages aren't designed with screen readers in mind. I mean, even Discord on the PC barely works with a screen reader tool,

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This is a huge problem. And to make matters worse, my absolute favorite user interface framework and all the apps using it aren't accessible to disabled mobile users.

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if you are a Braille reader, it is not compatible with the Braille computer my brother uses. So even though the framework can be used to create Android and iOS mobile apps, blind and visually impaired users still can't use them.

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In this video. Join me as I figure out what our problem is, why it exists, and most importantly, how I fixed it and what that means for your apps. Let's jump in.

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Accessibility and software is a huge deal. Why are you joining us today?

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Well, I suppose that I'm. That I'd like to share my story in the hopes that, accessibility that I may be that, you know, my perspective on things may be able to give a give a voice to the to the accessibility software scene and sort of make developers aware of that, of that experience and make them, you know, conscious of accessibility and be able to improve upon, you know, accessibility as a part of software design, for sure.

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And I'm really thankful that you're providing that to, Chosen Few Software. And I'm glad to be able to give you this opportunity to give voice to accessibility and design in general. Yeah, absolutely.

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How does accessible design impact your daily life in software or otherwise?

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Well, accessibility is pretty much the core of everything that I do that involves any sort of reading or writing or anything that I do on the computer.

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I tend, you know, anything that requires visual aid, I need, screen reader or something for. Because when when, you know, when I had vision, I was able to use the computer quite quickly. But, with now that I don't have vision, it's pretty much instrumental to everything I do. You know, accessible, accessible software is pretty much, critical to everything I do creatively.

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And as far as things like research and other things go, for sure. And, I would say that, any, you know, anything that involves correspondence with other people, it's also it's also critical to my communication with people online because, you know, I don't you know, I'm sort of gearing up right now to get my, to get a proper social life, I suppose.

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But I think that it's that it's very important that there are accessible softwares for communication and messaging and stuff like that because, you know, for people like me who have a lot who have gone there several steps back and my independence and the vision loss experience, having a having a connection to communities that are, that represent things I'm interested in is very important.

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And I think that having accessible software that serves that need is very important for sure. I agree 100%, like especially in terms of communication, like having accessible email readers, having accessible instant messaging clients, that's super important to what you do on a daily basis, right? Yeah.

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What are some of the tools you use to accommodate your unique needs?

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Well, I think the one that I use that there are actually two that I use primarily. One is Jaws, which is a screen reader for windows that has been in that has been in development since 1995 and is still being updated. And the other feature, the other feature I use predominantly is VoiceOver on my iPad. Which is excuse me, which I think is a very I'm very grateful that that feature exists because, you know, it's, you know, when I want to listen to music and stuff, it's very, it's very useful for getting around the streaming services and everything for sure.

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And I also use a braille not touch Android tablet. It's basically it's basically a, braille writer slash computer that runs it, that runs a modified version of Android. I use that for a lot of my email stuff. I use it for, I use it for, again, communication as well as writing and reading because, you know, it's one thing hearing a text to speech voice on a computer read something back to you versus, using Braille to read, to read tactfully and have your inner voice reading that, reading whatever you're reading to you.

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Yeah. For sure. It's so, in in that respect, I think that I, I do think that they are very useful tools. Yeah, I can imagine especially using like touch to interface with the computer. I imagine that's much more intuitive. Yeah. Using voice as like a materi. Yeah. Because voice is because I use or SRO which is a plugin for the Reaper dog that that basically makes it compatible with screen readers like jaws.

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And it's, it's a very useful tool, but often it reads a lot that but often, often have find myself having to mute the speech. So to toggle the speech on and off, because sometimes it just reads way too much and it's really hard, and it's really hard for me to actually hear the whatever audio project I'm working on.

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So. So that's another tool I use. But yeah, using touch is a very it's a very intuitive way. And especially knowing Braille as sort of a, as a sort of, I'm not sure of you, you consider it its own language, but it's a, it's a language that interfaces with the existing English language, for sure. It's like a, it's like a different way of writing.

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And yeah, it's a different way of writing and reading it. And once you're able to learn how, learn how Braille works and make those connections in your brain through touch, then it's it's it's much easier for me to enjoy and sort of soak up whatever I'm reading or whatever.

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How would it impact your life if every app and website you wanted to use could be properly read by a screen reader?

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Well, it would make my life much, much simpler and a lot more efficient because, you know, if want because if I, because, you know, if, if, accessible software design was universal, then every then any navigation that I did between is it the braille note or my computer or anything like in the applications and websites within those.

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Within that, within those pieces of hardware, they, it would be very seamless. And I think it would make be able to make me a lot more independent, because one of the things I run into a lot is, is that, often I'll have I'll be browsing like a website, like Wikipedia or something, which has good accessibility, and then I'll go to a website that a same or modern website or, even like an older website, and it'll be completely different because the screen reader won't read like from one website to the next.

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It's kind of like you get different. Very. You get variable like amounts of screen reader accessibility. So it's very convoluted and a bit so it's very convoluted and a bit frustrating. And the if that stuff were universal, it would I think I would be able to navigate the web. And my other software is a lot more seamlessly.

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Totally. Yeah, I can imagine it's pretty jarring. Like it would almost be like if every single website you visited use, it used like a different theme. Like suddenly you would go from dark theme to light theme, right? Like, yeah, it would just feel inconsistent and like, yeah, be less accessible that way. Yeah, it is definitely that way with a lot of websites.

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And another thing that would be that if that stuff was universal, if accessibility was universal, I wouldn't need to ask for help for navigation of certain applications because, you know, there are some applications that are that just literally have no screen reader support. And I'm like, I need, like I need to ask you, like either you or mom or dad or someone to just like how they click a click the button I want, you know.

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Yeah. For sure. And you already kind of covered this a little bit. But

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Which of your senses do you rely on the most? Now that your functional vision is so limited?

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Sound and touch. You know, sound for pretty much any sound. I use the screener for pretty much anything I need to do visually. Anything that is visible with the naked eye on a computer is so is.

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Or at least it's supposed to be read described by the screen reader in a way that's intuitive and efficient. It's, although it's not always that way. And, and as far as touch goes, I use it to interface with a Braille keyboard. I use it to, read, read Braille and write and write Braille. It's and also generally just, getting around and doing things around the house.

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I do a lot of I'll do a lot of that stuff, too, actually. Yeah. For sure. I noticed, for example, whenever you're walking around the house, you'll kind of like to keep your fingers, like grazing against the wall. Yeah. So that you can kind of tell when each wall ends. Right. And I think that there's a lot of ways that software can be implemented in kind of a similar way, where you can kind of judge the boundaries of like each of the text fields and stuff completely technically.

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Yeah. That's yeah, that's something that I think is important is being able to know where you are on the screen in a, in it in a way that's efficient rather than, you know, because something I often find myself doing is just pressing the tab key on my keyboard like 50 times just to get right, just to get to a certain parameter that I want to adjust in Reaper or something like that.

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For sure.

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What's your biggest pet peeve when it comes to accessibility in software design? In your mind, what does fixing this issue look like in practice?

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Well, my biggest pet peeve with, access with current accessible software is it reads too much that I don't need and it doesn't read enough. What I do need. So

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by designing websites and applications from an excess of accessibility first standpoint, and then designing the rest of the software around that rather than designing everything for everything for a sighted user and then implementing accessibility afterward.

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Because. Right. It's it's it's a very is that that idea is kind of a very backwards process inherently. I think that designing designing for the least able users first is going to make it better for, you know, literally everyone using the website, not just disabled people for sure. Yeah. Because when you think about it, accessibility isn't just a feature that you tack on.

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Like you said, it's a it's at the very core of the experience. Exactly. If you can't perceive or like even understand the software experience that you're trying to use, then there's no point in the rest of it. It's not useful, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That's yeah. The main thing that that's the main thing that I think that would fix it is if software companies were conscious of accessibility and met and made sure and actually made sure to polish that accessibility rather than, you know, building a rudimentary framework for accessibility from the outset and then just sort of and then designing everything around it, but not really checking with the accessibility, the framework and, and modifying

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it to sort of cater not just not just cater, but to work with the things that they're designing around it. Because you want to always be thinking accessibility first. You don't want to create accessibility, then like move on to other things to not come back to it. You know? Yeah, for sure. And that's something that we even observed with my app later on in its development.

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Yeah, that we had actually seen regressions and how it appeared using your Braille computer. Yeah, exactly. And we made very we took very careful measures to ensure that, that didn't happen again. Yeah. That accessibility is not only implemented initially, but it's also a feature, a core feature that we maintain as part of the development lifecycle. Yeah, exactly.

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What does accessible software design mean to you? What are the biggest goals that developers should keep in mind when designing apps to be accessible for visually impaired users?

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I think that accessible is accessible. The soft accessible software, in my mind at least, means that regardless of what disability person may have, it the navigation of the website or program needs to be needs to be as easy or close to as easy as it is for sighted users.

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And this often means, I think, especially for visually impaired users. I think this means for access for developers of accessible software, it means sort of doing away with fancy, with fancy clutter, like websites like doing really. I think it means sort of doing away with really fancy UI design. And I think it also means, designing the website in a manner that is structurally efficient.

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You know, you want everything to be, you know, you want every element of your site or program to be, placed or coded in a manner that in a manner that, is that, you know, with something like a keyboard shortcut, you can instantly go to that menu item or like, it's predictable, right? Yeah, it's predictable and it's not and it's not.

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And people don't get lost in the details, you know, and again, make it structurally efficient and that you can like get to things easily without needing to do a lot of searching around for. And, just like going through, long list of menu items just to get to the one thing you want. And finally, our last question for the day

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If you could tell every developer in the world one thing about accessibility in software, what would it be?

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I think that, the thing I would say is that, you know, developers should be aware and some should be aware of the tools in which blind users use their software.

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And what I mean by this is like, you know, the like I encourage developers, every developer to to get at least familiar with how a screen reader works and to the and probably most importantly, test a website, test the website or program they're developing with a screen reader. And, you know, basically is basically kind of a put yourself in their shoes scenario, for sure.

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Like, you know, the like I would literally encourage the I would literally encourage developers to wear a blindfold and try and use their, the website or program they're developing with a screen reader to see how either to see how frustrating or or like, you know, how how easy it is. Because I think if I think if developers had that conscious experience, it would one I think develop sympathy and initiative for for positive change and accessibility and to, you know, make it easier for everyone else by covering that by covering that ground with screen readers and with, Braille computers and stuff and making sure that they're, software, making sure that their software is

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properly labeled, you know, each item in their website or program is properly labeled and is easily accessible. You know, I think that developers should be aware of keyboard, of keyboard shortcuts specific to the screen readers and work and design their software based on that knowledge and be able and again, just sort of familiarizing themself with the blind experience for sure, to just sort of get an idea of what it's like for people like me and how, how it is for so many others who yearn to be, who yearn to be very creative and productive people, but often can't do to the just sort of lack of accessibility of accessibility in the greater software

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scheme. Totally.

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Thank you so much, Eli, for being on the show. We really appreciate

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you sharing your perspective, sharing your story. That's really important, and I'm so thankful that you stepped up in this way for us. Yeah, no problem!

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Now that we have a better handle on this big, big problem, let's fix it.

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our solution will work for all Android devices supported by Apollonia.

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The UI framework I mentioned at the beginning of this video. In the future, I also want to add support for iOS devices like iPads and iPhones.

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But Eli needs my app to work on his Braille computer first. This is a map of our solution.

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So the first thing that we have is.

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Our app.

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And this app has some content inside of it. And. Underneath this app we have text fields. We have buttons.

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so then outside of that, we also have what we call an accessibility.

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And this accessibility delegate talking to all of these controls.

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And what does accessibility delegate does is it tells

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the system.

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That these controls have various properties which can include tags. They could include actions that we might perform on these buttons

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And essentially the flow of control goes from the app to the controls

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to the delegate to the. And then at how the opacity comes down, aware of how to represent all of this useful metadata about the user interface to the user in the most accessible way possible.

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Now that we have this all tidied up, we have one last hurdle to jump.

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Does it work for Eli?

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There we go. Contacts view. Oh, you can read that on the Braille display. Yeah. That's so cool. Invite friend.

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Let's start conversation.

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Yeah. It doesn't it doesn't seem to be updating the display when I do save changes because it didn't change the screen. That's a good question.

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Oh okay. Now I think I contact Izzy start conversation. Yep.

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Yeah. For some reason, it doesn't show the text. And it doesn't show the text I'm writing. Oh, it's just like it's just the brackets to indicate like the text field but it doesn't show the text. So you might want to see it look into that. Yeah for sure. That's good feedback.

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All right. Do a new line. Or did it send? Neither. Then you have to go to the send button. Oh, gotcha. So that's another thing I should maybe fix. Yeah.

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But that's really cool. It, like the fact that your are mostly able to, like, when you like, navigate the interface and everything. Yeah, that that counts for a lot. I think that this was a really productive session. Yeah, I think so.

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At the end of all this. There's one key moment from our journey that sticks out to me.

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We talked to Eli about what his needs are as a visually impaired digital citizen. This is honestly the biggest and most important part of everything in this video.

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Why? Because accessibility starts with the user. Not every user can see. Not every user can hear. Not every user can perceive colors like everyone else can. Everyone thinks differently to experiencing and approaching the software they use in vastly different ways.

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That said, not every tool will work for everyone,

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But if every app developer just put that little bit more thought into accessibility and how different user's needs impact their designs from conception to final product,

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We'd be just that much closer to a software world that works for everyone, can be accessed, used and enjoyed by all of us.

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So, did I fix my app? Yes. Did I fix hundreds of other apps similar to mine? Yes, indeed.

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but are we done here? Did we solve accessibility in software once and for all? Decidedly not.

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There's always a better app, and it's always one iteration away. Thanks for watching. Bye.